Playing the MBA Wait-List Game

What’s going on everyone. We’re one week into the 2010 year here at Northwestern. Hope everyone is still keeping up with those New Year's resolutions! But don’t worry, I won’t hold you to them to keep reading. I’ve definitely got a couple resolutions myself, including a pretty big one that relates to my website. But you’ll have to stay tuned a bit longer to watch it unfold. I also have a pretty large number of ideas cooking up for future posts and articles, but today I’m going to keep them on the back burner because I’ve got something a little better than that, at least for a select few of you.

Now that we’re right in the middle of the MBA application season, I’ve been getting lots of messages so I thought I’d share a couple of my responses here on my website. I figured I’d start with a recent question I received about being on the Northwestern JD-MBA waitlist. It sounds like my reader feels like he’s stuck in limbo and is ready to be rescued or at least get a little closure from Kellogg. I don't blame him, I usually like to have closure myself.

But I'd like to add one caveat before I give out any information, which is to keep in mind that I don’t work for Kellogg and that I’m not a member on their MBA Admission team. Instead, I’m a student at Northwestern who is simply offering my time and personal website to respond to a few email questions and ultimately share some really good information with applicants in the b-school world, as I’m sure quite a few of you will appreciate the favor. As readers on my site, I also hope that you will feel free to return the favor, and leave comments and send messages when something peaks your interest.

Okay, so to get back to business, I suspect there are a number of readers all across the U.S. sitting on the edge of their seats and hitting the refresh button every couple of minutes as they wait for update emails, pondering this exact same question. “What do I do now?”

So I’ve decided to answer the question as broadly as possible so that more people might benefit. Take a look below for my reader’s question, and then look below that for my response.

Good luck on your quests everyone !

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READER'S EMAIL TO ME

Dear Jeremy,

Hi, my name is (REMOVED) from (REMOVED). I was introduced to your blog by a friend a few months back and since have been following your entries closely. Think it's just awesome that you can maintain such a resourceful blog while on your 1st year at law school!

To give you a quick introduction of myself and my situation, I've done 4 years of investment banking (REMOVED) in (REMOVED) and also understanding the potential synergies from a mix of business and law knowledge and experiences, am too seeking a JD/MBA degree. Thus, I had resigned (voluntary) from (REMOVED) in October to sit the December LSAT. My initial plan was to apply to a bunch (top 10) of MBAs and Law schools and go the one that I get acceptance from both (excluding of course Northwestern, NYU and Duke where they have integrated applications).. But I guess 2 months was not enough to get me fully prepped for the LSAT. Did not feel good about the test and had to cancel. Also I've naturally applied to the Northwestern 3yr JD/MBA but was notified this past week that I am waitlisted. Very frustrated as Northwestern was of course my #1 choice with the 3 yr program and the most integrated curriculum..

I was wondering if you would have any insight or tips, waitlist strategies.. For Kellogg in general and if any different, JD/MBA program specific. Any classmates who got admission after being waitlisted, what actions they took after being waitlisted etc. Also do you think the admissions committee be impressed if one makes a campus visit? You understand the state of mind I am in right? Think I can do just about anything for admission but just feeling helpless..

I saw from your blog that school started again this past week, hope I'm not bothering you too much. Any information, tips, stories would be greatly helpful. Many thanks in advance!

Best regards,

(NAME)

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MY RESPONSE TO READER'S EMAIL


Hello (REMOVED),

I hope this message finds you well and finds you in time. I know you probably feel pretty tense right now. It’s a tough year for applying to school and you’ve almost made it across the finish line here in round one, so congratulations. But I know congratulations is the last thing you want to hear, so I’ll try to focus mostly on the tangible steps that someone on the waitlist may or may not want to take.

First off, students on the waitlist get in to top schools every year. For many of them, the waitlist ends up being nothing more than a long line at a new movie, and after standing in line for a bit they are granted a ticket of admission. I know a couple of Kellogg students who got in last year, and there are also students here in the JD-MBA program that had the same experience. For others, the waitlist ends up being more like purgatory and requires a serious gut check, because there’s really not much you can do but wait to see how the school responds. At the end of the day, there are a lot of factors that admissions teams are balancing--individual fit, class composition, predictability of the next round of applicants, employability, diversity, current school needs, and more--so it’s impossible for me, and probably even them, to tell you exactly how things will turn out so early in the game. But I’ll start with a few general ideas and go from there.

As a general reference point for everyone, you should always follow the directions in your decision letter to a ‘T’. If a school tells you they don’t want updates, then don’t shoot yourself in the foot by sending them extra information. Instead sit back, relax, put your feet up on the couch, and wait for them to come calling. But, if a school tells you that they do want to hear updates, than don’t even think about downshifting gears, because you’ve got some work to do if you really want in.

Generally, the waitlisted applicants are considered solid candidates, even star candidates. Now is the time to showcase more subtle aspects of your profile. Be ready to articulate your story again, but this time better. Give them a few golden nuggets you may have forgotten to dig out from your past and put in your essays. Also, distinguish how you stand out from the other number-crunching bankers, consultants, or whatever professional you are (emailer in this case was a banker) and how you can add perspective to the classroom. And be more introspective the next few weeks, so that you’re better prepared to talk about your leadership or entrepreneurial goals. Instead of using industry buzz words, overused resume verbs, and clichéd MBA language, think more deeply about your leadership style and talk more about stuff that motivates you, what you did, how you felt, and what you learned. And if you’re really up to it, try really spilling your guts a bit more and really putting the details out there---always remembering to stay professional of course, as this is business school---because this might just be your last chance.

In your specific case (NAME REMOVED), you should definitely take a bit more of a deep breadth. Making the waitlist in a class that only targets 25 students is a big accomplishment. To that end, I'll note that your request for a distinction between Kellogg and the JD-MBA program is not relevant for you. As an applicant to the dual program, you are not an applicant to Kellogg. Personally, I've never heard of any changes of that sort, and if it did happen, it would have to be highly discretionary. But in regards to the JD-MBA waitlist, I don’t have any factual information to share (and if I did, it’d probably be top secret anyhow) but my impression, as I mentioned above, is that JD-MBA students do get off the waitlist fairly regularly. Of course, the odds could sway like a pendulum from year to year, depending on the number of applicants, the yield rate from round one, the caliber of applicants (and subsequent yield rate) from round two, and the number of applicants in round three, leaving you potentially swimming in a pool with a tank of MBA sharks on the worst of years and still leaving you in limbo most every other year. But that’s pretty hard to predict. The good news about getting waitlisted in round one is that you still have two more rounds to get accepted. And if this is your top choice, you’ll still be there sticking it out on the WL while the faint of heart and risk averse go running off to other schools. The real irony with that is that lawyers tend to be risk averse, so staying around might be a catch-22. And the bad news is that exact same fact, that you may have to wait two more rounds before finding out, and that will feel like an eternity, especially if things don’t go according to plan.

Also (REMOVED), from what I’ve heard about Kellogg—though I can’t say anything for certain--is that they are one of those schools that may decide they want more information from you down the line. So while it’s never smart to pester admissions, you should be sure to be ready in case they do ask you for more information. As I said above, take a look in your letter, and if you’re uncertain utilize the Kellogg Admissions office just to be sure.

If at some point now or later they do ask for information, then that is your chance to shine. Think about the suggestions I mentioned above. And since the JD-MBA program here is so small and customized, you might also think about ways to show why want both degrees and what you plan to do with them. That's something that most, if not all, the JD-MBAs did well in the application process. Further, you may want to discuss how those career goals came about. Are they rooted somewhere in your past or present, or are you simply hoping to stack up a couple more degrees and make some cash when you graduate--don’t let them assume it’s the second by not clearly saying! And once you do that, then you might think about what you’ve done so far to prove that passion and how you can continue at Northwestern, and doing so by differentiating both schools. And just to cover my bases, I’ll also say that every year students from all schools retake GMATs, take extra courses, figure out ways to cover weaknesses, tell them about promotions, and more. It’s up to you whether you think that will help, and unfortunately I don't have any data at all on how many people here have done or have considered doing that. I suspect that it would be fewer than more, but that's simply a guess. And every year, the stars do align for a lucky few candidates, even here in the JD-MBA program. So try to stay positive for now, it’s still early.

Now finally, I’ve included a few more pieces of information. First, is a response to your question about visiting campus. Kellogg clearly states on it website (click here), though in all your decisions, you should keep in mind that Kellogg and Northwestern JD-MBA are not run exactly the same.

Second, check out the Kellogg admissions blog to see if they have any updates for the JD-MBA program. Click here for the site. Doesn't look they post regularly, but might be worth taking a look.

And finally, I’ve included a link to an OLD thread in a Businessweek MBA forum. It relates to Kellogg only, but it’s one of the few pieces of information about Kellogg’s waitlist preferences online. Given its date I strongly suggest NOT relying on it, but it might be a useful reference point for some readers. Click here for the link.

Best of luck (REMOVED) !

Kellogg MBA and JD-MBA Application Deadlines

I recently received an email from an applicant asking me to post the due date for the Kellogg business school application. Both the Kellogg and the JD-MBA applications are due this upcoming Thursday on October 15. I suspect many of you have been working hard the past one or two weeks turning in applications to a few other top schools but don't let this stop you from turning in the best application possible this Thursday.

Don't forget that people will likely be applying to b-school in hordes again this year because of the economy, just like last year, where at many schools Round 1 had a 25%-35% increase. In fact, some people predict this year will be even worse. As such, it's important to put your best foot forward before hitting the submit button. Generally this means doing things like making sure you actually answer the essay questions, putting the correct school name in your essays, meticulously double-checking the data form for errors and completeness, ensuring that you complied with the essay formatting requirements, ensuring you get the letters of recommendation in on time, and double checking to make sure you've squeezed everything possible into your essays. Once you've done all that, then you've done all that you can, so just take a sigh of relief, submit, and relax a bit because it's going to be a long season of waiting to hear back. It always is.

I'll also reiterate something I've said in a previous post. If you are considering applying in either Round 1 or Round 2, but not sure if you're ready to submit to Kellogg this week (or to any school), schools will always encourage you to apply when your application is best. Historically applicants have applied heavily to both rounds, but slightly more people do apply to round 2. As a result, round 2 is often more competitive in terms of the "number of applicants." My two pieces of personal advice are 1) that you should always put your best foot forward and 2) that on the margin, earlier is better.

For reference, see below for a full list of important application dates. Best of luck to everyone, and I hope to see many of you at Kellogg's admit weekend this year!

2009-2010 Kellogg Deadlines and Notification Dates

Round 1
Deadline: October 15, 2009
Notification: January 11, 2010

Round Two
Deadline: January 14, 2010
Notification: March 29, 2010

Round Three
Deadline: March 4, 2010
Notification: May 17, 2010

Click here for the official Kellogg page.

Kellogg Preview Weekend

Hey all, just wanted to quickly pass along the info for Kellogg's Preview Weekend. Kellogg Preview is a minority prospective weekend for this year's Kellogg applicants. I went last year, and it was a lot of fun. It was a great chance to mingle with lots of potential Kellogg students, many who actually ended up at Kellogg. It was also a great chance to see firsthand what it would be like to be a student at both Kellogg and the JD-MBA program, and it was also a good time to do your interview on campus with an admissions staff member. I plan to be stop by the event this year, so I hope to see some of you there. Keep in mind that if you do end up at Kellogg next year, we'll be classmates because I'm spending my time at the law school this year and will start at Kellogg in 2010.

Anyhow, see below for official info on our event. If you are considering going, then I suggest you consider signing up soon because last year the event filled up. Also, note that although the event targets a specific audience, it is open to all prospective students.

Below is the official Kellogg blurb on the event. Feel free to use my comment box to ask any questions about the event.

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Kellogg Preview: Minority Prospective Student Weekend – November 13-14, 2009

The admissions office along with the Africa Business Club, Black Management Association and Hispanic Business Student Association are excited to once again host this annual event. Over this two day event, participants will enjoy mock classes with Professor Harry Kraemer and Professor Steve Rogers and connect with an assigned KPW Buddy while interacting with students from the larger Kellogg community.

To register for these and our off-campus events, visit our website.

We look forward to meeting you soon!

Are You At A Recruiting Disadvantage Because of Summer Classes In The Northwestern JD-MBA Program

Hey all, so I recently received a good question from a prospective Northwestern JD-MBA applicant.

"I know that the Northwestern accelerated program requires you to be in law school for the first summer. Do you feel that puts you at a disadvantage with interning and securing a job post-school?"

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So, as an entering first year student, I'll confess that I'm not an expert on all JD-MBA career paths, but I'm happy to give my opinion based on my research and based on talking to dozens of students and alumni of the program.

So my first comment is that JD-MBAs rarely have issues during the recruiting season. Every summer and every year well before graduation, 100% of JD-MBAs are employed at top firms. While this year may prove to be a bit different due to the "odd" economic times, I suspect JD-MBAs at Northwestern will still do quite well.

Here are a couple of statistics from this year's summer.

-19 out of 23 are working at law firms (all best of the best firms)
- Most of those have spots at Cravath, Kirkland, and Skadden

- 4 of 23 are working at businesses
- Of those, 2 are doing consulting, 1 is at her family’s company, and 1 is doing investment banking

But don't let the numbers fool you, a pretty large number of people in the program are interested in business. From my conversations, it seems like the breakdown towards law is 1) slightly exaggerated due to the economy and 2) weighted towards law since not doing a legal internship precludes you from getting a law job after graduation, whereas you can always go back to business if you don’t like law during the summer. That said, the stats are not totally far off. 19 of 23 is 82% this year, though I've heard the usual is around 3/4.

Upon graduation, the final split is usually closer to 50/50, and graduates generally go to premier law firms, top three consulting firms (M/B/B), investment banks, VC/PE, and other. The other category is usually pretty interesting and has included companies in media, sports, government (federal and state clerkships), non profits, real estate firms, and hedge funds. With options like these, I think it's fair to say that there is no disadvantage at all to taking classes the first summer. I say enjoy the time in coursework, explore diverse career opportunities that you may not have otherwise thought about, and engage in topics you are interested in, whether it's at the law school or at Kellogg, and whether it pays really well or not.

Early Career MBA & JD-MBA Applicants

Hey everyone, I recently received an email from someone who is looking into JD-MBA programs. She’s currently beginning her senior year in college, and she asked me to assess her profile and to provide her with some general advice for applying to JD-MBA programs. I wanted to take a few moments to share some of my answer here (though not all of it in this case) and also discuss the idea of early career MBA applicants, which definitely has been getting a lot of buzz the last few years.

Business schools have traditionally preferred applicants with 4 to 5 years of experience over those with less experience. The idea is that someone who has more professional experiences can better contribute to class and section discussions, as well as can better understand much of the practical business coursework. Statistically, this is especially true of Kellogg, where the average years of work experience is close to 5 years, and where traditionally very few applicants have ever been taken straight from undergrad. In fact, reportedly a few years back, Kellogg didn’t accept a single student straight from undergrad.

Although I’m 4 years out now, I actually considered applying for an MBA a few years ago, both one and two years out of school. Unfortunately, my idea was pretty short-lived because the start-up firm I worked for suddenly decided to go out of business. Although I was definitely set on going back to school early, in retrospect, it clear that I am more well-prepared to do well in school now because of my additional work and community experience.

Although this is true for most applicants, MBA programs have been trending down in terms of preferred years of experience. Today, schools definitely consider applicants with 0 to 2 years from undergrad as much as they consider older applicants. Of the highest ranked schools, Stanford, Harvard, and Sloan are taking younger kids in hordes, and they're doing it even moreso today than they did a few years ago when I thought of applying.

If I had to give advice to younger applicants when applying, first I’d say stats are relatively more important for you. Since you have less work experience and professional expertise to offer (as I also did when I considered applying), schools will want to see evidence of your intelligence through high grades and stellar GMAT scores. Additionally, just because you have less professional experience doesn’t mean you’re off the hook for leadership potential. Schools still want to see evidence of your leadership and decision-making in extra-curricular activities and in internships. After that you’ll be assessed like every other candidate on your b-school “story” where you should discuss why you need an MBA and should answer the question, Why now? For you, the difference is that you’re story must answer the question, why now right after school, as opposed to why 4 or 5 years out of school.

In comparison to business school, JD-MBA programs have always required less experience from their applicants. This is because these programs balance the respective profiles of the university business school and law school, which are entirely different. While business schools usually prefer a couple of years of experience, law schools have traditionally taken tons of students with little or no work experience. As such, admits to some JD-MBA programs have a pretty low average age, which typically works out well sense dual degree students begin at the law school.

I'll note that the actual numbers to JD-MBA programs depends on the school. The Northwestern JD-MBA for instance has a typical average of 4.5 to 5.0 years of experience, which is pretty closely aligned with general b-school population. Word on the street is that the first class of Pennsylvania will be pretty similar. However, I know of 4 or 5 schools off hand that encourage applicants straight from undergrad.

To me, all of these differences emphasize the fit factor when applying. Although you probably hear the word “fit” every time you talk about applications, it is important to ensure you apply to and enroll at a school that is the right fit for your professional and personal aspirations. Once you find that school (or those schools) that is a fit, then my personal opinion is that you should work on getting your story and putting together a quality application. Once you can do all of that, then you're probably ready to give it a shot. Best of luck if you decide to do so this year!

Kellogg MBA Class of 2012

Because I’m in the 3-year JD-MBA program at Northwestern, I will begin my studies at the law school this fall and won’t officially start at Kellogg until the fall of 2010. This means that I won’t graduate with all the b-school kids that I applied with in the class of 2011, which is definitely unfortunate, because I have quite a few friends starting at Kellogg and at other schools.

However despite not being able to graduate with my fellow admits, I’m still excited to meet this year's MBA applicants. You guys will be admitted to the class of 2012, which is my class. So for those of you who go to Kellogg, we'll be starting at the same time, and we might even be in the same section.

As such, I intend to write a lot about Kellogg this season, and hopefully I can share some quality insights about the MBA program. To that end, I’m also planning on using my blog to post some of my responses to applicant questions. So stay tuned, read, and please feel free to make a few comments on my blog along the way.

Hopefully you’ve already gotten started in the application process. Keep me posted on your progress.

Good luck!

Why Kellogg

I recently got an email from someone interested in applying to the JD-MBA program. She sent a couple of questions, including "Why Northwestern?" I'll take a stab at answering the question below.

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So when I tell people I'm headed to Northwestern's JD-MBA program, I usually get three different responses: (i) Congratulations! (ii) Why Kellogg/Northwestern? and (iii) Why a JD and an MBA?

What I've learned about going through this process and answering these questions is that choosing a business school is no easy feat. The are a number of top programs out there that will help you accomplish your career goals. I had the good fortune of being part of Management Leadership for Tomorrow (MLT) as an applicant. MLT focuses on the business school application process and specifically helped me determine my priorities for choosing a school. As part of the program, I spent a lot of time visiting campuses, interacting with current students, reflecting on my personal goals, writing strong essays, and going to admitted student weekends. I strongly suggest that any graduate school applicant go through the same due diligence.

I ultimately chose to attend Kellogg's JD-MBA program. Accepting a place at Kellogg was not a hard decision given it's top ranking and premier resources. However, turning down other top schools was a bit more difficult. Upon reflection, there are a couple of specific reasons that helped me realize that Kellogg was the best fit for me.

Teamwork. Having worked on a variety of project teams as a consultant, I've learned the distinct advantage of having a high-performing team. Kellogg pioneered the concept of teamwork in b-school. From being a student-driven culture, to rotating study groups, to a lopsided amount of team-based coursework, Kellogg and Northwestern law will best allow me to hone my teamwork skills.

Classmates: Students at Northwestern are slightly older and amongst the most collegial, fun loving students at any school. This is true at both Kellogg and Northwestern Law, and I look forward to a really fun three years.

Marketing Orientation. Unlike many Kellogg students, I don't plan to go into marketing after graduation. But I do believe that marketing/ sales is one of the most important functions in business. As such, Kellogg's strong marketing curriculum--from the world-renowned marketing curriculum to its annual marketing competition--will be a good fit for me.

Leadership Development. I believe that running a company is as much about influential leadership as it is about analysis and processes. I've had the fortunate experience of having worked with one or two really good leaders in addition to a lot of really bad ones, teaching me the importance of good leadership in business. Kellogg offers things like a 360 leadership assessment, a culture based on feedback, a great MORS major (and leadership minor), and countless ways to lead/organize as a part of the student body.

Negotiation Coursework. I am really interested academically in negotiations. Law school is generally a great way to get this exposure, and Northwestern Law is one of the best with the topic. Northwestern Law is also known for its practical coursework and its clinics, including a negotiations clinic. Kellogg also has a great negotiations curriculum. They have some of the best professors in the field who have written some of the best books in the field. At Kellogg, you can even get a minor in negotiations.

Consulting. I have a background in human capital consulting and plan to pursue the management consulting field post-graduation. Kellogg is one of the best at sending students into the field, they even have the "Analytical Consulting" major specifically designed to enter the field.

JD-MBA Program. I will talk more about the specifics of the dual program in my next post, but attaining both degrees was definitely a huge factor in my school decision, probably the biggest, as my long-term professional interests are tied to both law and business. In m opinion, Northwestern far and away has the best and most integrated JD-MBA program.

At Northwestern, I know I can gain the skills and experiences to achieve my professional goals and continue on my leadership journey. I look forward to starting at Northwestern this fall.